WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:36 pm

the railroad tie section is GONE. and the brainiacs at the county added a lovely water bar at the fastest part of the downhill so you get tossed over your handlebars. what's next, crushed stone? this is complete BS. Did YAMBA know about this change? Not only that, the equipment they brought in (God forbid they do anything manually like we do) tore the hell out of the woods. What happened to taking care of the park land?

I have to say, its getting more and more difficult to volunteer my time and energy to help keep the trails nice when the county insists on ruining fun sections......
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WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby danwalko » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:57 pm

Sorry Fins, YAMBA was neither consulted nor participated in this project. We were actually going to reroute that section of trail later this year. Not sure what they were thinking.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:00 pm

I didnt think so Dan. you may want to alert the powers that be with YCP about that waterbar. its a major accident waiting to happen.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby ScottyB » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:54 pm

That water bar is at a really bad spot.

This was one of my favorite sections in the park, loved jumping down the railroad ties.
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WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby danwalko » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:50 pm

Wait....you mean they continued the "road" all the way up to the start of Rusty Chair??
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby ken » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:47 pm

The newly graded section goes from deininger road, past the connector to 6, to the bridge, and halfway up the hill leading to the singletrack section. There are a lot of new water bars along that trail now, and some sections with crushed stone too.

I would not be surprised if something similar were done to several other wide trails that got a bit washed out after last years storms.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby wrench347 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Maybe these #$^%&*'s can just pave all the trails and rent golf carts for everyone to ride when you enter the front gate. What they have done to the trail "system" (snicker) would be an abomination if all they had done was to throw a bunch of dirt onto the trails but to bulldoze the shit out of the woods as well is just stupid. So much for conservation. Can't wait til we have a serious storm and the rain washes all those tons of loose earth into the local stream system, that will be eco-friendly!!
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby diggingtrail » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:49 pm

So I went up to RR today to see what the fuss was about. I had heard of the trail work that had been done about a week ago but hadn't laid eyes on it till today. Normally I am a defender of the Parks, after all it is their land. This time however...... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Pictures are louder than words

Near the bottom when heading down off Deininger Rd. Hmm looks kinda wet still
Image

Yep that looks like mud to me
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Didn't they just do something to keep the trail from staying wet after rain?
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'So the trail is wet, lets dump course rock and widen the trail, Yeah that'll fix the problem'
Image

Watch out for the perfectly crafted swales in the trail
Pictures can't show the scale, this is one is about 1.5ft deep and is situated right at the base of the large rock roll where the railroad ties used to be
Image

The great work continued at the top of trail 5 near Deininger Rd
Image

Image

I'm not sure what kind of follow-up there will be to this, but there will be something, after I relax a bit. Like Fins said, this makes one question why I, why we, do what we do. If YAMBA performed work like this we would never be allowed to build another trail. It is very disheartening to see, and it's made even worse by the fact that I was getting ready to submit a proposal to reroute this section of trail due to it's poor shape.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:55 am

Not only that, the very risk adverse county actually created a very big risk since its just a matter of time until somebody has a bad crash after hitting that water bar or that large crushed stone.

It almost looks like the crew started with the upper section then got carried away. I cant believe that Mike Fobes isn't going to completely freak out when he sees the amount of damage they did near the bridge.

Keep us informed of the follow up Kevin. I haven't talked to one rider who isn't completely pissed about this. As a taxpayer we should all be incensed due to the waste of our money for this project that was very poorly done and wont last.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby ScottyB » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:30 am

Please keep us updated Kevin.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Glancing Aft » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:33 am

Glad this topic came up. I saw it last week and was surprised by the destruction on the trail, especially since I thought YAMBA had plans to reroute it.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Wed May 02, 2012 7:30 am

yet another unintended consequence of this is that every ride I spoke to last night believes that YAMBA did that work.....
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby wrench347 » Wed May 02, 2012 10:28 am

The idea that anyone thinks YAMBA had a hand in this is BAD, BAD, BAD on every level!!

I've made it a point to talk to everyone I've seen on the trails, whether riding or walking. I warn them about the destroyed and dangerous trail sections on 4/6 and indicate that the YORK COUNTY PARKS DEPT is responsible for this mess and that they need to get involved to stop this before they destroy all the trails.

Lets not make this about YAMBA/us/mountain bike riders. This needs to come from as many people as possible, not just mountain bikers but all trail users (I'm also a hiker, backpacker etc and I wouldn't want to hike on this muddy abomination either). We need to engage all the trail users to stop the destruction of the natural beauty of our parks.

Tony
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Wed May 02, 2012 11:54 am

I totally agree Wrench. everybody is angry, not just the bikers. the way they just bulldozed everything is awful. people need to start emailing the parks and possibly the commissioners so that this NEVER happens again. I think a 10 minute conversation with Kevin could have prevented this whole mess.
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Tue May 08, 2012 5:58 am

Has there been any discussion with the parks about this yet?
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby wrench347 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:02 am

Here's a sample text for a flyer or handbill to be distributed to raise awareness and a call to action. I've done it as a Word doc. with enough room to add a picture of the mess they've made.
That's my 2¢
Tony


Hikers, Trail Runners, Horseback Riders & Mountain Bikers!

By now you have no doubt seen the disastrous bulldozer work on trails 4 & 6 which have been turned into a dangerous and environmentally unsound muddy mess of loose earth and piles of loose rocks, complete with standing pools of stagnant water, no firm footing and no thought given to aesthetics, sustainability or run off into our watershed

Before the Parks Department “smoothes out” any more trails at Rocky Ridge we must take action to bring about a correction for the damage done and prevent further destruction to the natural beauty of our park, the trail network and the environment before it’s too late.

Please take a few minutes from your busy day and contact the Parks Dept. to voice your concern over the destruction of our park and/or attend a Parks Dept. meeting and speak out. Rocky Ridge cannot defend itself, its up to all of us!

Contact info for the Parks Dept:
Tammy Klunk; Parks Director tfklunk@yorkcountypa.gov (717) 840-7227
Michael E. Fobes; Manager of Natural Resources mefobes@yorkcountypa.gov (717) 840-7228
Tuesday, May 22; York County Parks Advisory Board Meeting
Pleasant Acres Annex, 7pm
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Glancing Aft » Tue May 08, 2012 1:32 pm

thanks for the heads up about the meeting. I will do my best to be there!
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby wrench347 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:42 pm

Well gang, what’s our game plan here? Does YAMBA have a position on this and if so what? How does YAMBA respond and when? I’ve been at Rocky Ridge at least twice a week since they bulldozed the trails and every time people are asking why this happened and if anything can be done and what the mountain bike club is doing about this. People assume that YAMBA has a voice and can influence the Parks in this matter. Do we, can we?
Tony
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby danwalko » Wed May 09, 2012 10:54 pm

Hey everyone…

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was finally able to get out on Monday evening to see what everyone is talking about. First….I have to state what I consider to be obvious. YAMBA does not own Rocky Ridge. I agree with past statements that we are all taxpayers of York County and technically…we all partially own the parks. However….the parks are not ours to manage. They are managed by professionals who have every intention of doing what is best for the users of the parks. I understand that at Rocky Ridge, a large percentage of the park users are mountain bikers. However…..if you take into account all users of all of the county park in York, I would guess that mountain bikers make up less than 25% of the total.

YAMBA’s mission has always been to work in conjunction with the parks to ensure access to the trail system for mountain bikers. We have contributed monetarily to the parks and have contributed many, many hours of volunteer time. While we do a majority of work on the trails at RR and the Lakes, I would again point out that as a percentage of the total volunteers at all county parks…mountain bikers make up a very small percentage of that. The last figure I remember is from 2010 which was our best year ever with approx 1500 volunteer hours by YAMBA members. (I don’t have exact figures with me right now). That year….the York County Parks logged over 16000 volunteer hours for the year. Doing some quick math…that equates to less than 10% of the total hours contributed by YAMBA.

I took a good look at the work that the Parks did on Trail 5 and Trail 4. ALL of the areas they worked were already washed out and unsustainable. All of these areas were already “roads” that had become severely eroded over the years. While the work they did would likely not meet IMBA or other trail building standards, the work they did also did not make trail any worse than it already was. Kevin and I really wanted to re-route the section of trail 4 that went over the railroad ties back when we planned Rusty Chair. However….without the use of major equipment, we could find no reasonable alternative to the trail that was already there. For that reason, we ended Rusty Chair before that area.

What did everyone expect the Parks to do with this area? Were you expecting them to build new singletrack for our use? The parks budget is already severely limited and I find it unreasonable that we should expect them to build new singletrack anywhere in the parks. YAMBA spent an entire year building Rusty Chair! The parks has neither the manpower nor the budget to build a trail like that. While I would agree that what they did is not sustainable, the old trail was not sustainable either. You will note that the Parks did not touch any areas that YAMBA had worked. And I have received their assurance that they will not touch anything that we have built.

I do appreciate the work that YAMBA members have done in the past to help with trail construction, repair, and other necessary maintenance at the Parks. The work that we have done has fulfilled YAMBA’s mission to improve the trail system while at the same time ensuring continued access for mountain bikers. I noted that both Tony and John have been very vocal in this thread. I appreciate that both of them have been major contributors to trail works during the past few years. However, I question these other mountain bikers that are so upset about the work the parks did. When was the last time they helped with trail maintenance? Were they present when we recently built bipolar?

I find the “outrage” over what the parks did to be somewhat unreasonable. The parks built a new bridge on trail 4 and are planning in the coming months to build two new bridges on the connector trail that leads down to trail 6. Lacking a large volunteer group, it saves a lot of time and expense to make that area accessible by vehicle rather than having to haul lumber and materials by hand. Had it not been washed out by the floods last year….the area was already accessible by vehicle. Yes….YAMBA would help with hauling materials to the site of the new bridges but how many of you would show up to assist in this effort. The last trailwork I led at Lake Redman to clean out a blocked drainage pipe and maintain two bridges had 2 volunteers plus myself! The trailwork before that to do some maintenance on OMT had 5 volunteers.

My point here is that YAMBA does not own the York County Parks. YAMBA also will not dictate what is and what is not acceptable work anywhere in the park. I plan to continue to work with the Parks to do as much maintenance as we can. We will build new trails. We will maintain existing trails. We will work to ensure all mountain bikers, including the ones that never help with any maintenance, have access to the York County Parks. The mountain biking community in York has more to loose than to gain by ruining our relationship with those that are in charge of the York County Parks.

YAMBA will not attend any of the Parks Advisory Board meetings to discuss this issue. YAMBA has a member (Charles Smith) who is also a member of the Advisory Board. Charles is trusted to speak on our behalf if necessary. I encourage anyone in the mountain biking community that plans to attend any Advisory Board Meetings, to do so as taxpayers and users of the park, not as spokespersons for YAMBA. I ask that you conduct yourself in a professional and courteous manner at any meeting you attend. I cannot stress enough that we have more to loose than to gain by alienating those that are in charge of the Parks. Look at the large mountain biking community in the Baltimore area. Even their organized and combined voice has not yet gained them access to Loch Raven after what – two years!

I know that my response will generate some discussion. I welcome any comments on this forum, by private message, or if you wish to discuss this in person, please attend one of our upcoming trailworks at Rocky Ridge. We will have the summer trailwork schedule posted on the calendar in the coming days.

Thank you,

Dan
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Re: WTF HAPPENED TO TRAIL 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby finsout » Thu May 10, 2012 8:44 am

Very disappointed in this response. First off, in the last year I have done a large amount of trail work at RR both as part of organized trail work and on my own. With the Oct storm alone I did over 20 hours with my own saw, and my own gas.

I don't think people are asking for an adversarial relationship (although I think it is now inevitable that we are going to see that), what we are asking for is a dialog with the county and to discuss some mitigation of the trial work they did. Yes, they took away a cool section but that is past and done, BUT, they replaced it with an unsafe trail. People are going to get hurt on those swales at speed and when your bike sinks in the mud.

I will address the environmental damage and taxpayer cost/waste with the Commissioners directly but I was hoping that YAMBA would at least voice our concerns to the Parks and work to improve the work they did! Isn't that one of the club's primary missions? To represent the concerns of the bikers? I can guarantee that if such a discussion was had and a plan put in place, I would be there with my shovel and bucket to help fix it, but such a conversation needs to happen!

People are very angry about this and lack of a response from YAMBA is not helping. This could be a golden opportunity to take a bad situation and benefit by developing a stronger relationship with the parks to reach an acceptable solution. Not only does this help the bikers in general, it helps the club by showing the YAMBA will step up to the plate and represent us effectively. Absent leadership, adversarial relationships will develop and illegal work is going to happen. Count on it.
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